| 1 | --- |
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| 2 | title: Tahoe LAFS - Nuts & Bolts Meetings |
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| 3 | |
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| 4 | --- |
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| 5 | |
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| 6 | # Tahoe-LAFS - Nuts & Bolts Meetings |
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| 7 | [Location](https://meet.jit.si/AccurateFiltersManipulateBefore) |
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| 8 | [Legacy meeting notes](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/WeeklyMeeting) |
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| 9 | |
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| 10 | ## August 27, 2024 |
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| 11 | ### Attendees |
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| 12 | |
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| 13 | |
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| 14 | ## Previous items |
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| 15 | |
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| 16 | @blaisep Now owns [17 trac tickets from the backlog](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/query?owner=blaisep&status=assigned&status=new&status=reopened&id=&keywords=~&reporter=~&col=id&col=summary&col=keywords&col=reporter&col=status&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=changetime&desc=1&order=id) which are addressed in this month's effort to produce the getting started kit (docs and Artifacts) |
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| 17 | |
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| 18 | |
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| 19 | ## New Items |
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| 20 | |
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| 21 | - Trac [#4103](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4103#ticket) is a running summary of the items related to the Getting started guide. |
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| 22 | - Trac [4102](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4102#ticket) describes a workaround for a problem with one of the transitive dependencies (`eliotutils.py`). |
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| 23 | - @blaisep has limited availability until Sep 30 2024 |
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| 24 | |
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| 25 | |
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| 26 | --- |
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| 27 | |
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| 28 | ## August 20, 2024 |
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| 29 | ### Attendees |
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| 30 | |
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| 31 | Blaise |
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| 32 | b3n |
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| 33 | ccx |
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| 34 | Chris |
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| 35 | hacklschorsch |
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| 36 | |
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| 37 | ## Previous items |
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| 38 | |
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| 39 | ### WTF Circle CI? |
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| 40 | * Is it broken? Maybe drop it? |
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| 41 | * Do we have much logic in the Circle CI? |
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| 42 | * It might be tests failing, rather than a systemic fail (credentials, dependencies, etc) |
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| 43 | * "AMP server"? (twisted RPC framework) @ccx |
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| 44 | * * https://app.circleci.com/pipelines/github/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/4958/workflows/d16324ae-293d-45c8-ba97-6ac39ef4cfc4 |
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| 45 | * https://app.circleci.com/pipelines/github/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/4958/workflows/d16324ae-293d-45c8-ba97-6ac39ef4cfc4/jobs/86344 |
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| 46 | |
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| 47 | |
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| 48 | ### Towards a portable CI |
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| 49 | * keep logic in the repo |
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| 50 | * avoid huge Nix dependency (or maybe build a weekly Nix image) |
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| 51 | * https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/ci_cd_for_external_repos/github_integration.html |
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| 52 | |
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| 53 | |
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| 54 | |
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| 55 | ### Describe the build process |
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| 56 | * add prose in the dev guide to the files in the repo describing the build (@blaise) |
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| 57 | * update the release checklist: https://tahoe-lafs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/release-checklist.html |
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| 58 | |
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| 59 | ### Mutables, Service of Happiness |
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| 60 | * @blaise asked where we were at with mutables... |
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| 61 | * using mutables as single writers (eg. Tahoe backup) |
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| 62 | * It's a big thing, eventually replace with a proper design for a multi-writer primitive |
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| 63 | * For now, stick with readonly or Magic Folder for examples and getting started guide. |
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| 64 | * > Mutables are not just even single-writer safe because partitions can cause rollbacks. Shouldn't be super common but it's still real world error case. @ccx |
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| 65 | |
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| 66 | ### [MoveOffTrac](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/MoveOffTrac) - [#4095](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4095) |
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| 67 | * Trac dump from last month has been migrated on the self-hosted Forgejo [instance](https://forge.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/trac-2024-07-25). |
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| 68 | * Working on user mapping: trying to figure how to link trac users to Gitea/Forgejo users, with a mapping to the Github user if different! |
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| 69 | * New Forgejo instance (copy/paste from Gitea) to be closer to Codeberg: https://forge.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/ |
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| 70 | * Testing migration to Codeberg with pagination bug (workaround), performance issue (deadlock error) and user mapping (unlikely possible) |
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| 71 | * Keyoxide.org may help us to link all those account!? |
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| 72 | |
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| 73 | ## New Items |
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| 74 | |
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| 75 | * Blaisep has trac !!! |
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| 76 | * TIL: Trac use "htdigest" (@meejah "i'll put a note in ~trac") |
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| 77 | |
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| 78 | --- |
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| 79 | |
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| 80 | ## August 13, 2024 |
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| 81 | ### Attendees |
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| 82 | |
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| 83 | Blaise |
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| 84 | b3n |
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| 85 | ccx |
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| 86 | Chris |
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| 87 | hacklschorsch |
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| 88 | Pete |
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| 89 | |
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| 90 | ## Previous items |
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| 91 | |
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| 92 | - Blaise needs a trac account to CRUD issues, for docs, etc. |
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| 93 | - GitTea self register results in many spam accounts @b3n |
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| 94 | - We have users on Trac and users on GitHub, sometimes the names are different. @b3n |
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| 95 | - Trac Migration Plan [WIP](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/MoveOffTrac) |
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| 96 | - migrated Trac eval instance (https://code.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/trac-2024-05-23/issues) |
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| 97 | |
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| 98 | ## New |
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| 99 | - Meejah might not have admin to [github.com/tahoe-lafs](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/pull/1370) but so far that isn't yet a problem (eg. if Circle CI creds need updating.) @blaisep |
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| 100 | - Consider using Google, GitHub auth for auto register CodeBerg accounts |
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| 101 | - Consider upgrading/self hosting Trac instance (maybe it's not so bad after all) |
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| 102 | - Could we make trac readonly and do new work on the ["demo" instance](https://www.lafs.eval.latfa.net/) instance? |
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| 103 | |
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| 104 | |
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| 105 | ### Migrating Issues: Goals and Constraints |
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| 106 | - Anything off of track is better |
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| 107 | - Github Issues are accessible, but there is risk of lock-in, enshitification |
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| 108 | - Gitea/Forgejo/CodeBerg is future-proof (no lock-in) |
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| 109 | - Inconsistent tribal knowledge about decisions made last year @blaisep et al. |
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| 110 | |
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| 111 | --- |
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| 112 | |
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| 113 | |
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| 114 | ## August 6, 2024 |
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| 115 | ### Attendees |
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| 116 | |
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| 117 | Blaise |
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| 118 | b3n |
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| 119 | Chris |
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| 120 | ccx |
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| 121 | hacklschorsch |
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| 122 | meejah |
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| 123 | Pete |
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| 124 | |
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| 125 | |
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| 126 | Thought leaders: |
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| 127 | Amber O'Hearn (not so much) |
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| 128 | Larry Lessig |
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| 129 | Brewster Kahle |
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| 130 | Christine_Lemmer-Webber (spritely) |
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| 131 | |
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| 132 | |
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| 133 | New Items: |
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| 134 | |
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| 135 | Pete's foundation doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MpFUUB9sX-SA6rsHpq9ZkIhrnZaG3zwzI6KJ9I0VAgE/edit |
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| 136 | |
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| 137 | ## Comparables |
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| 138 | |
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| 139 | * https://spritely.institute/about/ |
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| 140 | * https://ocapn.org/ |
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| 141 | * https://darkcrystal.pw/ (meejah) |
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| 142 | * ISRG https://www.abetterinternet.org/ |
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| 143 | * https://divviup.org/ |
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| 144 | * https://sans-io.readthedocs.io/ |
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| 145 | |
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| 146 | |
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| 147 | ### Mission statements |
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| 148 | |
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| 149 | "Infrastructure for Libre, gratis, private, intentional composability and sharing " @Blaise , @meejah |
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| 150 | |
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| 151 | Device introduction @meejah |
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| 152 | |
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| 153 | "social infrastructure tools (sharing and composability to support differrent social structures and relationships)" |
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| 154 | Bootstrap social relations, dependency maps. |
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| 155 | @Chris |
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| 156 | |
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| 157 | secure sharing with least privilege (zero trust?) @ccx |
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| 158 | (Higher resolution, more ephemeral than app-level privs) |
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| 159 | https://roy.marples.name/blog/posts/capsicum_vs_pledge_final_thoughts |
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| 160 | |
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| 161 | Discoverable, "~~decentralized~~" (Autonomous?) / disconnected in nature (eg. TLS without the PKI) @Pete |
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| 162 | Provider independent |
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| 163 | |
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| 164 | |
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| 165 | ### Community Survey |
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| 166 | |
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| 167 | @Chris: Maybe do a poll "Should we build a Library or an application?" Right now it's the worst of both worlds. Maybe we could explore where we could get more bang; decompose into smaller building blocks may be better. |
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| 168 | eg, decouple wire protocol from the U I. |
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| 169 | https://sans-io.readthedocs.io/ @Pete |
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| 170 | |
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| 171 | Who is the audience? grandmas with photosharing? Political activists? crypto bros? |
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| 172 | |
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| 173 | --- |
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| 174 | |
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| 175 | ## July 30, 2024 |
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| 176 | ### Attendees |
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| 177 | |
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| 178 | Blaise |
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| 179 | hacklschorsch |
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| 180 | b3n |
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| 181 | Chris |
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| 182 | Pete |
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| 183 | ccx |
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| 184 | |
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| 185 | ## Highlights: |
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| 186 | * Project governance structure |
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| 187 | |
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| 188 | ## Agenda |
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| 189 | |
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| 190 | ### Previous topics: |
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| 191 | |
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| 192 | * Docs PR in progress |
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| 193 | |
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| 194 | ## New Topics: |
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| 195 | * A proposal for a governance structure (Pete) |
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| 196 | |
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| 197 | ### An endowment and governance structure |
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| 198 | |
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| 199 | * Align the Tahoe mission with the right institutional structure. |
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| 200 | * Similar cases: |
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| 201 | * The [Veillid Foundation](https://veilid.org/about-us/) is a very close analog. |
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| 202 | * https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/ |
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| 203 | * https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/who-we-are/ |
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| 204 | * https://www.abetterinternet.org/documents/2023-ISRG-Annual-Report.pdf |
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| 205 | * https://www.abetterinternet.org/about/ |
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| 206 | * https://matrix.org/foundation/about/ |
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| 207 | * Fund some dedicated project support |
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| 208 | |
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| 209 | ### Who is the community? |
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| 210 | * Board members |
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| 211 | * What are the activities? |
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| 212 | * Intellectual property portfolio (trademarks, copyrights, patents)? |
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| 213 | |
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| 214 | ### Who is NOT the community? |
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| 215 | Where has the project stalled and why? |
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| 216 | Why do people drop in, get frustrated, and leave? |
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| 217 | What are the blockers for adoption and how can we overcome them. |
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| 218 | |
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| 219 | ### Tahoe public resources; what could we build next? |
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| 220 | * Public test grid ? |
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| 221 | * ZCap servers ? |
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| 222 | |
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| 223 | #### Other options for funding services |
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| 224 | |
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| 225 | * https://docs.opencollective.foundation/how-it-works/fees |
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| 226 | |
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| 227 | #### Dependent projects |
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| 228 | GridSync (golang) ? |
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| 229 | Magic Wormhole ? |
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| 230 | |
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| 231 | #### Dependencies |
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| 232 | * Twisted |
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| 233 | * Mutables |
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| 234 | * Python https://meta.pycqa.org/introduction.html |
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| 235 | |
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| 236 | --- |
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| 237 | |
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| 238 | ## July 23, 2024 |
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| 239 | |
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| 240 | ### Attendees |
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| 241 | |
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| 242 | Blaise |
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| 243 | hacklschorsch |
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| 244 | Meejah |
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| 245 | b3n |
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| 246 | Chris |
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| 247 | ccx |
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| 248 | |
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| 249 | |
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| 250 | ## Highlights: |
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| 251 | * Mutables would be a good thing for the Foundation to fund. |
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| 252 | * The goal of [GBS](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/gbs-downloader) is to replace foolscap. Not there yet. (sucks to require a node online) |
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| 253 | * Create project for client filesystem |
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| 254 | |
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| 255 | ## Agenda |
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| 256 | |
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| 257 | ### Previous topics: |
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| 258 | |
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| 259 | Meejah: |
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| 260 | * Trac disk space restored |
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| 261 | * Granted admin privs |
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| 262 | |
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| 263 | hacklschorsch: |
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| 264 | Mobile LAFS [Wiki page](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/TahoeLAFSMobile) with draft description of Features and Scope. |
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| 265 | |
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| 266 | B3n: |
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| 267 | Next, Trac migration path (DNS, ) |
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| 268 | Codeberg bug |
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| 269 | |
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| 270 | |
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| 271 | ### New topics: |
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| 272 | * B3n: Prepare Trac migration operating instructions (DNS settings, etc) |
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| 273 | * B3n: Help Meejah create Trac account (for Blaise). |
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| 274 | * Decision: Let's try to make the single mobile code base work (hacklschorsch) |
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| 275 | * Deep integration with the OS is not MVP (hacklschorsch) |
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| 276 | * [Gitlab milestones](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/milestones/7#tab-issues) don't have the OS integration yet.(ccx) |
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| 277 | * Create FUSE module for the dev environment (ccx) |
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| 278 | |
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| 279 | ## Notes: |
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| 280 | |
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| 281 | Chris: |
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| 282 | * [Porting Tahoe hashlib](https://github.com/crwood/deterministic-keygen/issues/5) to Rust and found an issue: |
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| 283 | * To do a restore with user supplied keys, if a directory is already created we get an uncoordinated error. Possible solution is to derive the cap locally. |
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| 284 | * Curating a common set of test vectors |
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| 285 | |
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| 286 | #### Restore scenarios |
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| 287 | Todo: write up a description, describing permuted scenarios (Meejah, Chris) |
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| 288 | (We need better words to describe the operations and events) |
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| 289 | |
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| 290 | Four scenarios: |
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| 291 | * Client failed, grid is fine |
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| 292 | * Grid loses nodes |
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| 293 | * Grid loses partial data |
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| 294 | * Grid loses all data |
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| 295 | |
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| 296 | |
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| 297 | #### Mutables |
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| 298 | * Don't do service happiness (ccx's complaint) |
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| 299 | |
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| 300 | Can't detect all the restore scenarios. Sometimes all the shares end up on one server :frowning: |
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| 301 | What is the meaning of Happiness? Happiness is just a number (Meejah) |
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| 302 | |
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| 303 | #### Mobile |
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| 304 | * Need to write up the description in [Wiki page](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/TahoeLAFSMobile) |
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| 305 | * We need to describe how much of the functionality |
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| 306 | * Foolscap requires a node online, [GBS](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/gbs-downloader) does not |
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| 307 | * "User defined grid" ? (ccx) |
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| 308 | * What if we had a gridsync client (b3n) |
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| 309 | * Deep integration with the OS is not MVP (hacklschorsch) |
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| 310 | * Obsidian has something called `backend` which is different. |
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| 311 | * [Obelisk overrides](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/blob/main/obelisk/haskell-overrides.nix?ref_type=heads) |
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| 312 | * Let's have good interface definitions (ccx) |
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| 313 | * [Gitlab repo](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-great-black-swamp) Code |
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| 314 | |
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| 315 | |
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| 316 | #### File system browser? (ccx) |
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| 317 | * Can we use the native [mobile libraries](https://emanual.github.io/Android-docs/guide/topics/providers/document-provider.html)? |
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| 318 | * How much do we need in the GUI? |
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| 319 | * (https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/blob/main/obelisk/haskell-overrides.nix?ref_type=heads) |
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| 320 | |
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| 321 | #### Create project: Investigate FUSE File System Support (ccx) |
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| 322 | * Read/Only native client |
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| 323 | * Read/Only magic folder |
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| 324 | * Read/Write Magic Folder |
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| 325 | * Built on top of GBS downloader |
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| 326 | |
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| 327 | --- |
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| 328 | |
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| 329 | |
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| 330 | |
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